“Ian talks about his
walk with Christ, his hopes for ministry, and particular groups he is hoping to
connect with.”
[For the PDF version of this Q&A click HERE]
[For the PDF version of this Q&A click HERE]
THE
NOW
Leigh Lim: What ministry are
you involved in at the moment?
Ian McGilvray: I guess at the
moment, I am in-between ministries. I mean this week, I’m finishing my course,
and my wife and I are in the process of moving up to the Blue Mountains --- and
we’re starting to connect with the Christian community up here. The shape of our
ministry would adapt to what God’s got in mind for us up in the mountains.
I’m also involved with
Robert Menzies College, which is a residential college at Macquarie University
--- I’m on the board of that college. We provide accommodation for a lot of
overseas students at the university. We’ve also got a chapel, and help people
from other countries (and other parts of Australia) understand the Gospel. So
my current ministry, in a formal sense, is my role in Robert Menzies College,
and as we move up here then see what the Lord has.
I’d be keen to meet
with Christians who have different artistic abilities, particularly in visual
arts, and encourage them.
LL: As an Artist,
what do you currently spend your time on?
IM: At the moment, I
keep in practice by drawing people figures. I also do some reading to develop
ideas, and my current reading is a Christian book on ‘Restorative Justice’,
which is the process of healing broken relationships--- for example: when a crime has been committed.
I’ve come from a
conference recently called ‘Compassionate Justice’ which seeks to find the
Christian perspective (through the ‘Parable of the Prodigal Son’) on what do we
do about our justice system, about criminals. How do we understand what’s the
role of putting people in gaol, what do we think it should achieve.
I’ve also done some
research on Asylum Seekers. So I think at the moment it’s a period of research,
which I in turn would end up turning into a series of paintings.
LL: Would you
gravitate towards a specific topic? Then work on an inspiration from there?
IM: It’s probably
both, there isn’t a conscious topic.
LL: What medium do
you gravitate towards? And if you had more time (as an Artist), what would you
spend it on?
IM: Probably Oil
Painting. If I had more time, I’d probably spend more time travelling and
drawing, then bring those drawings back and then develop them into paintings.
LL: Is it pretty
different doing sketches, rather than just taking photographs?
IM: Yes, I think it is
important to sketch on location because you may bring a photograph home, but it
may not show what really caught your eye while you were there.
LL: Would it be more
of a locational thing? Would you say that if they were in Sydney it would be
great, but if they were further out, maybe it might be difficult?
IM: Oh, well, we’ll
just have to see how it works out. Thought it seems geographically people are
not that far away, but with the internet, I might set up a blog site of a way
to encourage people online. We just have to see what God does.
WHAT
HAS SHAPED HIM
LL: In terms of your
walk with Christ, can you give us a rundown of where you were, where you are
now, and where you want to be? ([Including] the changes that has happened.)
IM: I came to Christ
when I was quite young, fourteen. My early Christian life was getting to know
the Lord Jesus and to read His Word, to understand what God’s purpose is for
the world and His purpose is with me would be. To understand what God is doing
and so I could find my place in it. A lot of it was understanding that my life
made sense in God, and all things that I would do in life had to be for His
Glory, and that He would show me the focus of my life.
I went into
Architecture in university, and at that time reading a fair bit about a group
called the L'Abri Fellowship in
Switzerland with Francis Schaeffer, and Christian books about ‘calling’ and
using your gifts, your vocation for God ---- and the fact that all the world
belongs to God. And so, He wants His Church, His people to be ‘salt and light’,
and to make a difference wherever He puts us. As a young Christian, I was
trying to understand how within the field of Architecture how I could be God’s
person.
Then in my late
twenties I got married to Jill, which was wonderful. That opened up in my
Christian walk sharing with another person and working out what it would be as
a couple and as a family. So in the early years we were working out what would
be a practical way to be God’s person in a largely Non-Christian culture. I didn’t
have time to focus on my art, mostly in my career in Architecture, raising a
family, and being a member of the local Church.
In later years, as our
children were a bit older, my wife and I had a bit more time to think about and
make sure that we could not lose sight of God, and it’s tough when you’re
raising a family. Also my job was very demanding, I had a senior role as an
architect, long hours --- I had to work out how to make sure that the job
wasn’t dominating all of my time and my energy. And at some point I should
spend more time developing the gift of art that God has given me, and not just
see it as a sideline or a minor issue. Which led, in about 2010, I decided to
stop Architecture and go to full time study at university in fine art. With the
intention to see if I could, after training in that, develop a central
framework [and see how I could be used by God] in the contemporary art world
----- to be salt and light as a contemporary artist.
Before, I hadn’t
really had a lot of contact with contemporary artists. I enjoyed art, my own private art, reading
books and stuff. I hadn’t met a lot of artists, [so the university was a good
place] to connect with people who are active in visual arts.
LL: [Was] there a
particular time in your life [when] you noticed spiritual and personal growth?
And what did you think contributed to it?
IM: I think it was
when I was reading the Bible and I understood God’s bigger plan, that all
things really centre on Christ. And that all of the created order that we live in
and all of the relationships, the whole purpose of human history for God, is to
worship Him and come to Jesus.
In the early years as
I was studying the Bible and reading Christian books, from Francis Schaeffer
and others, that was a real spiritual moment because I had a vision that
anything that happens in life is important to God. Not just Church on Sunday or
Christians being in one corner. I can see that everything matters to God and we
have to be His people of salt and light.
Other times of
spiritual growth would be was when I turned 50 years old, and my wife said to
me: “I wonder if we’re both planning our married life so that our passion [is]
for God and that we’ve got enough vision.” And I realised that I’ve lost some
of my passion, not for Love of God, but in terms of letting God’s Spirit give
us a job to do that would have lasting impact. I thought that, maybe it’s easy
to slip into being too busy at work, too busy with this and that, than what God
wants to achieve and the big picture. So when I turned 50 I really resolved
that I would take seriously the art, the gift of art. Not for my purposes, not
to make me be important, but to put myself in God’s Hands.
Then just recently
I’ve been able to connect with other younger Christians that have a real vision
from God to make a difference in the Non-Christian community. There are a lot
of people who don’t know the Lord Jesus, [and] are very intelligent, and
thoughtful people, and are not being reached for Christ. My wife and I have a
real vision to be a part of a community of Christians connecting with
Non-Christians and loving them.
LL: Are there
specific books that you think were very helpful for your Christian Growth?
IM: Some books that
have helped me develop a Christian framework for art include:
- · Outreach and the Artist by Con Campbell, Zondervan 2013 (there is an interview with me in this recent book)
- · Visual Faith: Art, theology and worship in dialogue, by William Dyrness, Baker Academic 2001
- · It Was Good: Making art to the glory of god, edited by Ned Bustard, Square Halo Books, 2006
- · Modern Art and the Death of a Culture, by H.R. Rookmaaker, Inter Varsity Press, 1970
- · Art and the Bible, by Francis Schaeffer, Inter Varsity Press, 1979
- · Addicted to Mediocrity, by Franky Schaeffer, Cornerstone books, 1981
- · State of the Arts: From Bezalel to Mapplethorpe, by gene Veith, Crossway Books, 1991
- · The Arts in Your Church, by Fiona Bond, Piquant, 2001
LL: With the books
you mentioned, were they collected throughout the years?
LL: Among the books
you mentioned, is there a specific one that really speaks to you? Do you go
back to any of them often?
IM: I suppose there’s
the one (‘And It Was Good') which has a chapter by Tim, a pastor in New York
City. That book has been a real inspiration and a resource. And also there’s
the little book, a little tiny leaflet, ‘Art and the Bible’ Francis Schaeffer.
There are many
Christian books that have affected me, separate from the topic of visual arts.
I also get inspiration from Poetry, one would be [Gerard] Manley Hopkins is
particularly profound as he shares his life struggles in Poetry. Also the
writings of CS Lewis, in fact my wife and I are going to England for a CS Lewis
Tour.
LL: Are there Bible
verses that resonate with you?
IM: One of the most
powerful for me in the Bible would be Ephesians 2:10: ‘We are God’s
workmanship…’. We are God’s artwork, we are a work in progress, it’s a
wonderful verse, and it shows us that God’s actually changing us to His
likeness. I don’t think it is addressed to an individual, I think it is
addressed to both the individual and the Church Community. That an artist
doesn’t work in isolation, but in partnership with the Church. So that’s
probably my very favourite! (laughs)
Another one would be a
well known one, which is ‘you are the light of the world’ and ‘you are the
salt’ [Matthew 5:3-16]. So those two images of Jesus, being salt and light, is
absolutely vital and gives you a pursuit if you’re an artist, a butcher or
whatever you do in a job sense, God wants his people to be salt and light. And
that applies very much to art.
Another one is 1
Corinthians 10:31, which is to do everything for the glory of God. That
affected me that the ultimate aim of every drawing and painting is to give
glory to God.
The other is Romans
12:2 where we have our minds renewed, and art is to explore the way which God’s
Kingdom is different to this world, and how he makes us see His hand and see
things differently through the Holy Spirit. An artist is trying to share with
other people things which are not easily seen.
So those verses mean a
lot to me.
CONNECTING
LL: Do you think the
time you spent [going through] the corporate route, and having art in the
background,[ made you realise that] Art was the gift, rather than Architecture?
But, I thought that it
was unfortunate that I was neglecting Art, and it’s easy to neglect things like
art. I [also] thought what would it really look like if I pursued that for God.
And for a long time I put that off because financially I thought that it would
be very hard thing to do. So it was only until later life I was able to do
that.
LL: Was is a bit like
saying to God: ‘God, I feel like you’re telling me to jump, and I’m gonna
jump.’?
IM: Yeah, that’s
right. Take a risk. Because, none of my friends have really done that. So I
didn’t have any role models to follow. It was a bit like jumping. A leap of
faith! (laughs)
LL: At the moment are
you part of a Small group?
IM: We used to have a
small group with young adults at our church at St. Matthews Anglican Church,
West Pennant Hills. It was a Bible Study group with particular focus to
encourage people in various creative areas. We finished that group up because
we are moving to the Blue Mountains.
LL: Before that, was
there another group you were a part of?
IM: Yes, we’ve always
had a regular weekly study group
LL: How do you think
being a part of that group help you grow as a Christian and your fellowship
with others?
IM: With small groups,
it helps because you can study scripture with other people, and how God’s Word
applies to your current situation --- to the pressures you face at work,
relationship issues, or planning for the future. It’s a great way of bring
reading of the Bible to a very practical discussion. The other thing great
about small groups is that it’s great support in prayer for you, to encourage
you in your faith, and strength when times are hard.
LL: In terms of
opening up, do you have to wait until you get to a point that you’re
comfortable in opening up? Or do you just have to open up?
IM: It takes awhile to
build up that trust and confidence. With our small group, we’ve been meeting
for many, many years. We knew each other well, and could open up and be honest
about where our Christian Life is up to.
LL: Did you have any
activities that didn’t directly relate to reading the Bible or Theological
discussions? Was there a bowling night?
IM: Oh yeah, Every so
often we’d usually have a barbeque meal together. Sometimes we might go out to
a joint event. Mostly we’d have a social event every 4-5 months which would be
a barbeque just to relax together.
LL: Because life
isn’t just about reading the Bible, it’s also about connecting with others.
IM: Yeah, it’s about
sharing life, and the day to day stuff of life. I think the great thing about
fellowship is you share those everyday moments together and that’s what makes
it so rewarding.
LL: In terms of the
ministry that you’ve been hoping to be involved with, is there something at the
back of your mind that’s been there awhile?
IM: Well, one of them
is to help young people (school age), who might be doing art. And I’d love to
help them integrate it with their Christian Faith, in a young age. ‘Cause I
think the earlier in one’s Christian life that you can integrate the gifts
God’s given you and the nature of God’s calling for you, the better.
LL: For Artists that
are looking for other Artists to connect with --- are you open to people who
would like to find you online?
IM: Yeah, since I have
been focused on completing my university course, I haven’t been putting much
time in seeking out other groups. I’d be quite keen to be available. At the
moment email is my preferred option. Probably next year, I’ll get into
Facebook.
LL: It’s interesting
that sometimes some people go into a decision and really have a passion for it,
but sometimes what happens is they fail to ask themselves: “Have I spoken to
God about it?”
IM: Yeah
LL: “Have I said to
God: ‘this is what I’m really passionate about, what do You think?’ “
IM: Yes, because His
purposes are the best for us. And so if its just our ideas, about how to steer
our life, then that can go in the wrong direction. But if we really wait on
God, His purposes are fantastic. And at different times, that has been clearer
to myself, when I’ve just let go of control of my life and see what God would
have me do, and that is a time for growth. And when you look back over the
years, the things that you would delight [most] in your life, was by God’s
Grace when He’s used us to build His Kingdom. And all the other
things about [having a] successful career or making money or being popular…
LL: You’re right, and
recognise that you really want God to manage your life. It’s mind-blowing and
very scary, because you really don’t know what’s going to happen.
IM: The Non-Christian
world tells us you’ve got to steer your own life, and your own way. God’s way
is certainly different, as we constantly take risks. We find it hard, but
that’s when we grow.
LL: Yes, That’s
right. Just like what you were saying earlier, that God has the ultimate vision
for our lives. He knows us better than we do. (laughs)
LL: And since [our
intelligence is limited] the only way [our vision] could be supersized is if we
involve God, [and sometimes the result is] something that we wouldn’t expect.
Contacts from places we didn’t expect to find people.
IM: Yeah, that’s
right. And we’ve got to be like putty in His hands. Often we’re not (laughs)
LL: The biggest thing
I’ve noticed [that keeps us from giving ourselves completely to God] is pride.
That gets in the way, because [our usual reaction] is: ‘If I put myself in that
situation, it’ll be embarrassing for me!’
IM: That’s right. And
we [should ask] ourselves: “Well, is it better to have pride? Or to be part of
God’s great project?” Pride is very destructive, it robs us of God’s ways.
LL: What would your
advice be to those who are trying to work out the main things they should spend
their time on? To people who are asking: “How should I spend my time?”
LL: and for those who
are looking at it as an investment, it is much better to put in regular time
with God because of the [what] you get back. [Lets say] you have a hundred things
to do, and after spending time with God, He might say: “Just do those two
things”, and as a result of that answer, you’re likely to save a number of
hours at least.
LL: What’s the main
thing you’d like for creatives to hear?
IM: There’s two
things. One is for creative people to find in scripture that God’s purposes
very much relates to His creation, and part of it is how we connect with who we
are as people and the creation around us. When we take a look at the Old
Testament and God commissioned artists for the Tabernacle use of creative
gifts.
Firstly I want
creative people to be excited about the fact that in scripture we find that
God’s purposes is very much involved creativity and He wants to use creative
skills. The other thing I like for creative friends to see is the great need of
creative people in our society who are Non-Christians ---- they are often
hungry to know the meaning of life, and are trying to find it through art and
performing.
LL: It really is
about connecting with people isn’t it? Like you mentioned before, in terms of
creatives, sometimes there’s a certain group of people that only creatives can
reach.
IM: Yeah, and if God’s
given us creative abilities, as a Christian, then we have a responsibility just
like the parable of the talents. Not just giving those gifts for the heck of
it, (laughs) He’s given them for a particular reason and that is His great love
for us and for the Non-Christians. What He’s really saying is: “I’ve given you
a gift, what have you done with it?”
* Ian McGilvray is a
painter based in Blue Mountains and sits on the board of the Robert MenziesCollege. Ian is also an Architect and previously spent most of his time in the
corporate world, before moving into an arts degree.
More on Ian:
- Ian’s
‘Open House Interview’ (via Hope 103.2’s Podcast Archive)
- Ian’s Article titled 'Art with Heart' in Zadok Perspectives magazine (No. 118)
- View Ian’s
one page CV here
- Contact
him through the general CRAM Small Groups email: cramsmallgroups @ ymail . com (note the address is slightly altered to prevent spam)
Source Material and
Notes: The material posted is based on two phone conversations (June 2013)
between Ian McGilvray and Leigh Lim. Content has been edited for length, and the
final version has been reviewed and approved by the interviewee before being
posted.
Want a printable version to take with you? Get it here
Want a printable version to take with you? Get it here
